The Daily Bread Mailbag returns with Stephen “Breadman” Edwards tackling topics such as Canelo Alvarez’s big win over Jermell Charlo, fighters going for broke in a major fight, Floyd Mayweather facing a current day Canelo, input on Gennadiy Golovkin, fighters retiring, and more.
A hypothetical: Fighter A enters a superfight and is losing, so he goes for broke in a sense and tries to win, but in doing so opens himself up, takes more punishment and is stopped. Fighter B enters a superfight and is losing, so he goes into a shell and throws just enough to give the appearance of competing but in reality, he’s conceding defeat. I can’t drag Fighter B because it’s boxing and the damage and miles are very real. I wouldn’t knock him for taking a knee and “quitting”…and yet I find that more honest than just wanting to get to the scorecards. I have infinitely more admiration for Fighter A. So to my questions: am I wrong to be infuriated by fans who encourage the “gentleman’s decision loss by mocking fighters that gets KO’d? As a trainer, if your fighter has been dominated for 6 rounds, are you weighing if going for broke is feasible vs giving boxing advice to protect your guy and simply get him to the last bell?
Bread’s Response: This a great and respectfully articulated question. I make it my business to not insult or mock a fighter publicly. But we all can have an opinion…As a trainer I have went into 100% of my fights to win. The gameplans vary but the goal is the same. After winning, the goal is to perform admirably.
When I have had fighters losing in fights and I have told them to go for it. For example Zachary Ochoa was losing to Brandun Lee. Our gameplan was to move early and step to Lee late. Lee hurt Zach in the 7th round so Zach had to take the 8th off in order to get himself together. In the 9th and the 10th he went for it and hit Lee with some nice shots.
Kyrone Davis was fighting Mark Hernandez. He got hit with a big hook in the 1st or 2nd round and I thought he lost the first 2 rounds. I told him to get into Hernandez’s chest and grind him. That’s what he did.
When Kyrone Davis fought David Benavidez, we took the fight on 2 weeks notice. We boxed early but we also wanted to put hands on Benavidez. We were losing rounds and I told him to go for it in the 4th or 5th. We did that in a losing effort.
Caleb Plant was winning vs Benavidez. He got caught with a big shot and the momentum went in Benavidez’s favor. Caleb weathered the storm and we went for it BIG in the 12th round to try to pull it out.
Julian Williams was supposedly outgunned by Carlos Adames. We tried to win every round and take him into deep waters. The ref stopped it prematurely in my opinion and I got criticized for being upset at the ref for supposedly protecting my fighter who was literally letting his nuts hang out.
I bring these fights up so you can fact check.
Fighters are not supposed to listen to critics but unfortunately it’s reality. They do listen. So to some fighters getting stopped is more embarrassing than losing on by decision. Some fighters believe losing on your shield is more noble. It depends on the fighter.
I personally don’t get mad at a fighter if he’s not willing to die for my enjoyment or entertainment. More fighters try to survive than we acknowledge. It’s also why I never say Arturo Gatti shouldn’t be in the HOF. When your heart is as big as Gatti’s and you win the world championships he did. He’s earned everything he has. He was willing to die for our entertainment. It’s why he’s a legend and a HOF.
I know you’re speaking of Jermell Charlo’s performance. Personally I’m not upset with Jermell. He did what he did. He fought like he always fights. He’s a low volume, big punching counter puncher. Before he went to Derrick James he used his legs and boxed. Then he started knocking guys out and everyone forgot that he likes to use his legs. Jermell is not a seek and destroy fighter. He’s a mover who can punch.
When Tony Harrison was getting the better of him in the rematch. He boxed and ran Harrison into a big shot. When Brian Castano got off to a good start in the rematch, he boxed and moved and landed big shots. I have never seen Jermell goes balls to the wall. He’s a patient fighter.
The issue with fighting Canelo is he doesn’t make the mistakes his previous opponents did. And, he has an iron chin. Oh did I mention that he’s a master counter puncher. So his CLASS doesn’t allow fighters to do certain things.
Canelo made Callum Smith who is much bigger than Jermell Charlo do the same exact thing. Canelo made Billy Joe Saunders quit, while Saunders knowing he would take heat because he had previously criticized Daniel Dubois for quitting. Saunders still quit. Great fighters tend to do that.
So…I’ve seen Jermell fight at least 15 times in his career. Maybe 20. He’s always been a patient fighter. He’s always been a low volume fighter. The difference now is, is left hook has improved, where as before he was a jab and right hand mover. And he’s scoring kos. If you look at his record, before he got with Derrick James, he was 25-0 with just 11 kos….But some confuse ko results, with a seek and destroy style. So personally I’m not upset with Jermell. That’s what he is. I’m not training him and I’m not emotionally invested in him. So maybe if I bet on him I would feel different. Maybe if I trained him and we trained to step to Canelo and he didn’t I would be upset. But what I saw was an excellent fighter in Charlo, try to make his usual adjustments by being patient and scoring a late ko vs an ATG fighter in Canelo who is the better boxer, better puncher, physically stronger, meaner and just more comfortable applying these things vs elite competition.
We have to give Canelo his props. Jermell didn’t want to lose every round. He didn’t want to get to this fight and take the heat that he’s taking from the critics. The internet is killing him. Too much money was at stake if he beat Canelo. A Canelo rematch. A Crawford showdown. A Plant showdown. Etc etc. That’s 100 M worth of fights. Now Jermell won’t stay at 168. He won’t fight Canelo again. The Crawford fight has lost it’s luster.
I would have been pleasantly surprised if Jermell turned into Matthew Saad Muhammad after the 6th or 7th round. But his name isn’t Matthew Saad Muhammad. His name is Jermell Charlo, and it seems to me he did what he always does. He just couldn’t pull it off vs a fighter of Canelo’s caliber.
Some argue for him to be in the P4P top 10. I didn’t have a stake either way. He’s an excellent fighter. But most 4 belt champion ascend to the P4P list. For the record, I don’t have a vote in the Ring’s P4P rankings. But the reason he hasn’t in my opinion is because he loses too many rounds and when he doesn’t score kos, his decisions are close and controversial. It’s why I didn’t pick him to upset Canelo. See the Harrison, Castano and Martyrosyan fights. So we can’t kill a guy with criticism for being what he is, when we praised him for the same thing. Jermell is a CLUTCH puncher. It’s just didn’t work vs Canelo.
In the Canelo v Charlo fight I saw Charlo hesitate to pull the trigger because of the reflexes and counter punching ability of Canelo. This was one of Mayweather’s superpowers as well where he made good fighters hesitant to throw. My question is how did he expect to win if it wasn’t from out working Canelo or do you think the speed and power of Canelo just affected the game plan that much ?Charlo was obviously feeling the power and admitted it after the fight that the weight difference was real. Canelo started out at 147lbs and Charlo is the naturally bigger man so I was surprised that Canelo looked so much stronger. I also saw a mean streak in Canelo and I’ve read where you talk about mean fighters. Who are your top five meanest fighters and do you prefer a ‘mean streak’ in your fighters? My top five are 1. George Foreman 2. Mike Tyson 3. Marvin Hagler 4 .Terrance Crawford 5. Roberto Duran. Honorable Mention: Ali, Liston
Take care, Aaron from Cleveland
Bread’s Response: I think Canelo’s class took away Jermell’s confidence. Canelo is a hard puncher. He’s skillful in cutting off the ring. He outjabbed Jermell. And in the clinches he was much stronger. I think Canelo made Jermell look like that. In Jermell’s other tough fights he bailed himself out with late power. He went to his “go to” but Canelo was just too seasoned to run into a big shot late but you can’t blame Jermell for thinking Canelo would run out of gas.
Canelo not only makes minimum mistakes, he has a great chin and great defense. I think Jermell looked at Canelo from the outside and thought he had plenty of advantages and that he could beat him. But after getting in front of him, I don’t think he realized the LEVEL Canelo was operating at.
Yes I prefer a mean streak in fighters. As well as competitive streak which is slightly different. But the thing I prefer most in my fighters is the ability to be willing to win by any means necessary. Jermell’s usual adjustment is being patient and landing a big shot late. That didn’t work. So maybe he could’ve tried to up his output and take a decision. I don’t know, but it’s easy to say after the fight. I’m not in his camp so I can’t assess certain things but it looked to me that he fought how he usually fights but the Canelo was the variable that made it look different.
Top 5 meanest fighters. It’s more than 5. But let me try. Jack Johnson has to be at the top of any list. He tortured and mocked Jim Jeffries in front of a crowd of angry white people who could’ve killed him. He may be the meanest man in history. He mocked crowds knowing he could be lynched. That’s a different type of mean.
Ike Williams. Have you ever seen Ike Williams ko Beau Jack. Check that ko out and tell me what you think.
Sandy Saddler. Just watch any Saddler fight. He was dirty. He was talented. He gauged eyes. He laced faces. He was a savage.
Roberto Duran was also very mean. Very mean. See the Davey Moore fight, he tortured him.
Tommy Hearns fits the bill. And no ko loss took away his meanness.
Terry Norris was mean. See what I said about Tommy Hearns. Norris was also dirty on top of being mean, which makes him even more mean.
Gerald McClellan may have been the meanest I’ve seen in my lifetime. He just a brutal human.
Today Terence Crawford fits the bill. Crawford is a cold-hearted assassin.
Currently Canelo Alvarez and David Benavidez are fighters I classify as truly MEAN.
Of I forgot Ray Leonard. Just watch Leonard “finish” a fighter. Don’t look at his smile. Don’t look at how he talks. Watch him finish.
Sugar Ray Robinson. Watch him finish a fighter. Watch him finish Randy Turpin. Robinson had a sweet style but he was a mean, savage fighter.
See how my brain skips around. I do these mailbags freestyle without looking up information for the most part.
Do you think a prime Mayweather could have moved up three weight classes and won a decision against the Canelo we saw on Saturday? Fans who are new to boxing may not know that Mayweather is one of the best, if not the best, fighters of his generation. What percentage would you give that match up? When Mayweather did fight and beat Canelo, he was almost 40 years old and Canelo was an eight-year pro at 23.
Bread’s Response: I think Mayweather is a greater fighter than Canelo in a P4P sense. Mayweather fought Canelo at 152lbs and beat him. So are you asking me could he fight Canelo at 168lbs and beat him? I don’t know, that’s a big task for anyone in history who started at 130lbs. I don’t have an answer because it’s almost too hypothetical. Mayweather never weighed in over 150lbs for a fight. And he doesn’t walk around heavy. I’m sorry but I just don’t have answer for that. I don’t even know if it’s a realistic question.
Once again love your Saturday mail bag and it’s honestly an honor and a privilege learning from one of smartest minds in boxing .Today I would like hear your real comment on fighting hearts . I believe today a lot of fighters talk the talk and do not walk the walk . And for the record, I have been around Boxing 43 of my 5& years on this planet as an amateur boxer, a trainer and a manager. It started with Ryan Garcia this year. We’re in a super fight and he quit from my body shot. Somehow the public let him get away with it. It was not like Oscar De La Hoya, who couldn’t get up from polarizing body shot from Bernard Hopkins. Saturday night Charlo fought the whole fight to survive and did not show the heart like he talked it he needs to be called out for it. Thoughts? Howie from New Jersey?
Bread’s Response: Hmmm….I don’t look at what Garcia did and what Charlo did as the same. Charlo got up when he was knocked down. He stayed in there. He just didn’t go balls to the wall like his critics want him to do. He more or less tried to hit Canelo on the sweet spot and get a ko, while at the same time not get knocked out himself. That’s his usual conservative style that has worked for him.
Garcia fought a little immature in my opinion. He went balls to the wall too early in the 2nd round. Got clipped and the fight was pretty much over. It’s just a different fights. The one thing I will say is special fighters tend to make opponents do those things. Tank and Canelo are special.
Jermell Charlo lost nearly every second of the Canelo Alvarez fight. Not since Avni Yildirim has a boxer offered Alvarez so little resistance. Charlo also lost to Tony Harrison and fought to a draw with Brian Castano. Those two boxers are nowhere near the elite level.
So, is it fair to question how good of a boxer Jermell Charlo actually is? I understand Charlo moved up two weight divisions, came back from injury and had an incredibly long layoff. I also understand he’s an undisputed champion. But I just can’t buy him as an elite fighter. I think there are at least 50-75 other boxers who are just as good as him. Am I being too harsh?
Bread’s Response: I think you’re being too harsh. 50-75 fighters as good as Jermell is a stretch. I think you’re underestimating Canelo which is making you devalue Jermell.
I also think you’re underestimating how good Tommy Hearns and Ray Leonard were. I only bring them up because Hearns, Leonard and Canelo are the only fighter in history to win titles at JMW, MW, SMW and LHGTHVWT. That’s a very small group. Charlo was trying to be a member of that group with the MW title….My point is I think Jermell is an excellent fighter. He unified in his era which is a notable achievement. He avenged both previous blemishes on his record. He at least should be on the Hall of Fame ballot under consideration.
I think what we now realize is that he’s not a generational talent. He’s not on the level of the Canelo’s, Leonard’s and Hearns’s who are ATG fighters. Where as Jermell is an excellent fighter in this era and possible HOF. Time reveals all and that’s what the fight revealed to us. It’s not an indictment on Jermell. It’s just the reality. Canelo is a special fighter. A generational talent. And special fighters have a way of making things look easier than they really are.
Sun Tzu Quote…..“What the ancients called a clever fighter is one who not only wins, but excels in winning with ease.”
Good day Mr Edwards!
Just wanted your opinion on all the GGG hatred that he seems to be getting over the past couple years and especially since he is winding his career down now. Some analysts and even fighters appear to be calling him a borderline bum sometimes. I think even Max Kellerman said we need to revisit his legacy after some of his closer fights; Jacobs, Derevyachenko and Canelo for instance. But if he is that terrible how could he give the P4P #1 all he could handle in their first two fights? Also what do you think of the European approach some trainers and fighters take where they wait until they are mid to late twenties before they even turn pro? GGG and Lomachenko had 300-400 amateur fights. In my opinion it develops good fighters but I think it hurts them for getting big fights because it usually takes several years to make a name for yourself in the pros and by that time their prime may be behind them and they are trying to make up for lost time chasing money fights. I know Lomachenko got title shots early on but I feel like he might be a bit late in chasing these young hungry fighters right now, although he is still fighting well. It also makes it easier for other fighters to wait till they see slippage before fighting them.
Appreciate your input. Chad
Bread’s Response: GGG is a great fighter and a HOF. But I think because he didn’t win his Super Bowl conclusively, it hurts his legacy somewhat. I think he’s in the top 20 MWs ever where if he would’ve destroyed Canelo and Jacobs and maybe kod Sergio Martinez then he would be firmly in the top 10 ever. But If anyone calls him a BUM they’re out of their minds. GGG is a savage and a great fighter. ATG chin. ATG power. Just a tremendous fighter. Top 20 in an original 8 division as celebrated as MW that’s been around 130 years is nothing to sneeze at.
Guys like GGG and Loma were further along than most prospects when they turned pro. But the issue you stated is CORRECT. They get waited out then they’re forced to fight talented fighters about a decade younger than them, when they are pass their physical peak and it hurts their legacy. So it goes both ways. They don’t need the developmental fights that most prospects need. But they don’t make a name for themselves until their early 30s and then the decline starts.
The same thing happened to Mike McCallum. McCallum turned pro a little older than most prospects at like 25. He didn’t win the title until he was 28. He didn’t get his first big HBO spotlight until he was 31 vs Donald Curry. And he didn’t get his first big PPV until he was 35 vs James Toney who was 12 years younger.Great observation! Great call! I’ve always empathized with GGG and Loma because of the same exact thing you stated.
If I had a choice, I would still get the Uber talent with 80-100 amateur fights, a few national championships, who is about 19 or 20 years old. Our greatest American fighters only ever needed that. Muhammad Ali, Sugar Ray Robinson, Sugar Ray Leonard, Pernell Whitaker, Roy Jones, Andre Ward and Floyd Mayweather. Are the 7 of our greatest amateurs, who turned out to be ATG as pros. All turned pro between 18-20. All had extensive amateur careers but they didn’t stay too long. All got to fight most of their big fights against fighters in their age realm for the most part. Although it has worked, I’m not a fan of waiting until the mid or late 20s to turn pro. This is an unforgiving sport.
Dear Mr Edwards
Before the fight goes ahead, I just want to say that I have Charlo by KO.
Yours Sincerely, Abongile Zolani Peterson
Bread’s Response: I respect you for putting yourself out there before the fight. Sometimes you’re right. Sometimes you’re wrong. It’s the way the sport goes.
I’ve been arguing with other boxing heads all week after the Charlo fight. I called Charlo and his brother both B fighters. We certainly have to take into account that he went up 2 weight classes but that doesn’t change his B status as a fighter. A B grade is not a bad grade but even though he is undisputed, Canelo showed again that he is an A fighter by how he handled Charlo so easilyThere are not a lot of A fighters in the last 15 years in my opinion but Canelo is definitely an A fighter. Canelo is not an A plus fighter because when he went up against an A plus fighter (Floyd) he was dominated. Another example of A plus fighter is Andre Ward. Most thought Kovalev was an A level fighter before their 1st fight but after the second bout we saw the difference in levels.
Another example is The Monster, Inouye when he fought Stephen Fulton . Going into the fight Fulton was viewed as A level but afterwards we saw again that there is a difference between A and B level fighters . I am hesitant to stamp a fighter with an A grade until they show it against an A level fighter. GGG is B plus and would beat both Charlo brothers but when he faces an A fighter (Canelo) he loses.Do you have a list of A& A+ fighters from the last 10 to 15 years off the top of your head ? Here’s my list A+ =1. Floyd Mayweather 2. Andre Ward 3. Manny Pacquiao 4. Wladmir Klitschko (undefeated from 2004-2015) A= 1) Joe Calzaghe 2)Tyson Fury 3.Vastly Lomanchenko 4.Naoya Inoue bonus question if Roy Jones Jr. retires in 2003 after defeating John Ruiz does he stand next to Sugar Ray Robinson as the best ever in your opinion?
Take Care, Aaron from Cleveland
Bread’s Response: You’re comment is solid but I disagree on some points. GGG is an A fighter. He’s just not a Mt. Rushmore type of A+ fighter. If you take context into consideration. He’s 8 years older than Canelo. Let’s just call their first 2 fights even. In 24 rounds it was basically even. Most had GGG winning the first fight clean. So if Canelo is an A fighter. And GGG fought him even, at 34 and 35 years old. Then why isn’t GGG an A fighter along with Canelo?
Grade A fighters of the last 15 years. So since 2008…..I would say Floyd Mayweather, Bernard Hopkins, Manny Pacquiao, Andre Ward, Miguel Cotto, GGG, Canelo, Chocolatito, Joe Calzaghe, Juan Estrada, Monster Inoue, Terence Crawford, Vasyl Lomachenko, Olly Usyk, Wladimir Klitschko, Vitali Klitschko, Tyson Fury, Sergey Kovalev, Dmitri Bivol, Artur Beterbiev….I suspect that David Benavidez, Errol Spence, Teofimo Lopez, Tank Davis, Shakur Stevenson and Devin Haney are also A fighters but we may have to see more with them. If Spence rebounds at 154 he’s stamped.
There are other active fighter but we have to let their careers play out before we put them there….
I see your boy Coach Prime has bumped his head twice with two back to back losses. I know this is a boxing Q & A but I feel you touch all sports. Sanders is exactly what’s wrong with this country. He got a position he didn’t earn because he was a great player but hasn’t proved he was a great coach. He left the HBCU, forced dozens of kis to transfer and now he’s getting his comeuppance. What do you say?
Bread’s Response: My Boy!!! I respect Deion Sanders. I admire him actually. But when did he become my boy. I’ve never met him. And I don’t remember answering any questions about him. But since you want to go there…let’s address it.
I didn’t expect Deion to go 13-0 and win a National Championship. Colorado lost basically every game last year. So he’s already turned the program around. He’s already generated more money than the school did all last season with the football team. More eyes and awareness are on the Colorado football program than ever before. Do you realize how easy it will be for them to recruit next year? Turning a program around is a process. It takes more than one season.
I don’t want to bring up the race card. But I think you’re being a jerk by calling him my boy. I think you’re being a jerk by relishing in their losses. They’re 3-2. That’s solid. They were huge underdogs to lose both games they lost so gloating about that is just weird to me. If they go 7-6 that’s a win for the program considering where they came from.
Now, although I admire Coach Prime, I didn’t like the speech about bringing the Louie luggage. I think that was demeaning to the kids who had to leave. Getting a D1 scholarship is the Holy Grail for a HS athlete. And when those kids basically lost their scholarships, had to be hurtful. I don’t have an issue with Coach Prime bringing his luggage. Because he has to win immediately. That’s the position he’s in. So I get that. I just didn’t think that the speech was for public consumption because it hurt kids. But, Everyone knew he was going to bring in transfers from the portal and transfers from Jackson State. But going by your tone, I think you have a personal problem with him. Because other than that, I don’t think he did anything wrong.
He may be colorful and flamboyant but he’s also compassionate and he’s a winner and those kids love him for the most part. I know exactly where you’re coming from with this email. I can read between the lines. Jerk!
Now as for him earning his spot. Where you applying for the Colorado job? Was there a more qualified candidate to take over the program when Deion got the job? If you can’t tell me a name of a more qualified person. Or tell me that you applied for the job, then your comment is off base and you shouldn’t care about his qualifications.
He coached at JSU for 3 seasons and turned the program around. Before that he did a great job as the offensive coordinator of a Texas HS team.
Before that he was a HOF NFL football player and arguably the greatest player ever. Not just the greatest DB. So how didn’t he earn it, when he got to coach a 1-11 football team that was in shambles? You guys are sick! Literally sick to say he didn’t earn the job. It’s not like he skipped over more qualified people and got to coach the Kansas City Chiefs the year after they won the Super Bowl. I wouldn’t be mad at that either but I would understand where you’re coming from. But getting to coach Colorado, with his resume is about right. Actually he was qualified to take over a better program but you can’t comprehend that. I wanted to say some “other” things to you but I’m going to leave it where it is.
So this might get a bit personal, but it’s something I’ve been wondering for a while: How do you approach an aging boxer and advise them about considering retirement? I’m sure that can be a dicey subject, but you also strike me as a trainer who deeply cares about his fighters and will do what you think is right to protect them… even if it means protecting them from themselves. I’m sure we’ve all pondered where we’d stop the careers of certain fighters if we had the power to do so. I know I have (Ali retires after the Thrilla in Manila, Joe Louis retires after rematching Walcott, Sugar Ray Robinson after rematching Basilio, and so on). Have you ever pondered that? On a sidenote, who do you think is the first person to see when a boxer has lost a few steps and needs to hang up the gloves and call it a career? I feel trainers could spot that, but I remember hearing a saying that “The boxer themself is the first to know… and the last to admit it”. Is there something to that? How do you think about that and how do you handle it with fighters you train?
Bread’s Response: As a young trainer. This is something I thought about early in my career. I said to myself I want my fighters to get out a fight too early instead of a fight too late. I always wanted my fighters to retire on top. But as you get older you become less of an idealist and more of realist. It’s almost like being 45 and refusing to date women your age with kids. It’s not impossible but it’s highly unlikely.
So, Here is how I look at it. I have no issue telling a fighter to hang them up. But I’m also not squeamish. Just because a guy has slipped slightly it doesn’t mean he should retire. If a fighter can evolve with his style and his mind is sharp and processing, then a slight drop in physical ability can be made up for.
I’ve never trained a fighter that I felt was completely shot. And honestly I’m not looking forward to it. But if the day ever comes, I’m going to tell him. I did have a fighter who I felt was completely shot ask me to train them and I said no. I didn’t tell him he was completely shot, but I declined the job because I knew he was shot and I didn’t want to be responsible for him getting hurt.
I always pondered about certain fighters retiring at the perfect time. You hit Robinson and Ali on the head. I feel like Roy Jones could’ve retired after John Ruiz and been maybe the #1 man. I feel like Ray Leonard should’ve retired after the Duran rubber match. Leonard never won another fight after that. But the same things that make fighters great, Also makes them susceptible to hanging around too long. And once they lose late, it becomes so addictive to get the feeling back, that it turns into an obsession that I hate to see.
I think the first to see that a boxer has lost a few steps is the trainer. The fighter can’t see himself and he doesn’t want to see himself. But again you can’t jump the gun. Most fighters aren’t super sharp at the beginning of camp. You have to look at everything and not panic over some bad days or weeks.
The first thing I see personally, is slower processing. Getting hit with shots that are easy to avoid. Not throwing punches at obvious openings. The mind just isn’t as sharp. The same as for an older person when you ask them a question and they have a delayed response time. The same thing happens in a ring with the reaction time to fighters. Some say it’s the legs and that can be true. But legs can be built up as camp goes along. But that doesn’t mean they’re shot. You just have to run camp accordingly. It’s the reaction time and response time for me that’s first to decline.
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